The story of Crocker motorcycles has been obscured by tall tales and myths since the very day they were introduced, first as Speedway racers, then big V-twins, and finally a scooter, all built before official US involvement in WW2 put a halt to civilian motorcycle production. Wading through the murk around this famous American name, one bumps against vested interests and fast-held opinions, but enough facts have emerged on which we can anchor our tale. What is definitely known is they have skyrocketed in value in the past decade, filling many spots on our Top 100 Most Expensive Motorcycles list.
The Crocker has rightly become a coveted and very expensive machine, deserving of its place on the Olympus of Motorcycles, with the Brough SS100, Vincent Series A Rapide, and Zenith Super 8; the world’s first 100+mph production motorcycles. All were big, impressive V-twin Superbikes built in small numbers for a very discerning clientele…and all are very, very expensive today.
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Very interesting article. All I’ve ever read has been about the roadbikes, had no idea of all the dirt racing history involving Crocker.
The Cinders to Shale Speedway museum in Loanhead Scotland has a Crocker amongst it’s exhibits. This is without doubt the largest collection in the world.
Great article good sir … especially in light if the myths being perpetuated about who did what at Crocker by Bigsby’s bio in the automotive/motorcycle/music press of late . Methinks a full length – quality book is well overdue about the Legendary Crocker motorcycles and its creator / team
BTW I completely agree with the comment about Bigsby being one to toot his own horn ….. not to mention snagging more than his fair share of credit over the years .
Well done Paul. Paul Bigsby WAS a very talented and envolved motorcyclist. He was a founding member of the LA 45 m/c club. A very good tool and die man, pattern maker, and machist no matter what is said. Chuck Vernon and Ernie Skelton knew Al Crocker and Paul very well. I’m glad to have spent many hours with them in the early sixties and seventies and get alot of the stories first hand. It’s amazing how many of these limited production fine machines have survived to this day.
More than amazing ‘coz most of the machines that “survived” are actually composites/ fakes… Skelton and Vernon key parts of a huge scam then & after that has involved rip-off restorers in cahoots for decades. Certainly anything over #100 is a repop. Elites of course absolutely terrified that this truth about their phony investments will ever become known, maybe while hodling bitcoin too! 🙂 Plenty of evidence and documentation out there on how the Crocker scam has played out, beginning with the phony Sucher story which has worked out well for all the scammers who have come after..
Great read man, thanks a ton.
Cheers and beers
Crockers take the top three spots at the Bonhams auction ($302K – $291K ) Over and above the cars sold as well as a Brough .
Richard Worsham said…
Wonderful story. I’ve always been a bit confused about Crocker’s relationship with Indian and Harley. Great stuff.
Thanks,
Richard
Great article i did learn about the Thor era which i was unaware. Thanks for the info and yes a book would be awesome. LOL im trying to track it down and see if he was any relation. wish me luck.
The red, ’33 Crocker twin conversion listed at 500cc is actually 750cc. It was built by Gwen Banquer for Mike Corbin in 1999 and was introduced at the Daytona Bike show that year. It has a 1933 Rudge frame (not Crocker), but this Rudge frame type was likely to have been utilized by Crocker before he began making his own. The 101 Scout engine does not have a factory stamped VIN#, so it was probably a race motor to begin with. I believe that this engine has the automatic oil pump which was on the ’31 101 model.
By the way, I am the current owned of this machine.
HERE AGAIN WE HAVE CROCKER LACK OF PROPER KNOWLEDGE. ERNIE SKELTON AND CHUCK VERNON NEVER MET AL CROCKER, OR P.A. BIGSBY. ERNIE WAS BEST OF FRIENDS WITH THE LOOPER BROTHERS ESPECIALLY ELMO LOOPER. LETS GET CROCKER FACTS STRAIGHT. CHUCK VERNON IS ALIVE AND WELL AND HE WILL TELL YOU HE NEVER MET AL CROCKER OR P.A. BIGSBY.
My old pal chuck vernon died a few years back. Wish he was still around.
Does anyone know if there exists any video archival footage of a crocker being raced?
good for you Randy for spotting those inaccuracies. It would also be nice to see correct attribution of Homer Wood taking delivery of Crocker serial #4 from Al Crocker. This was the first twin sold to the public. Homer rode this across America in 1936 to take up his Masters studies in Engineering at Harvard. ( His thesis centered around a Crocker single engine. ) The valve seats of #4 came loose in Idaho but Al sent Homer another set of heads with the seats cut in the heads rather than inserted.
This is all first hand info as I corresponded with Homer and was the first recipient of 2 of the above photos from him. Check out the article I wrote for “The Classic motorcycle Magazine”
Sorry, Crocker guys $$-ed old hippies* obsessed with attempting to recapture some iconic moment of their wayward drug-addled wasted youth, by liquidating those $$ on these bikes. Eventually these guys (all guys btw) stumbled into big bucks… either through some criminal enterprise known as Wall Street, or by blind luck. That of course is their sell-out right, and freedom to do. But it’s a legacy totally rejected and resented by the young & younger people today.
*Hippie – Wikipedia
[Search domain en.wikipedia.org] https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Hippie
Many hippies would adapt and become members of the growing countercultural New Age movement of the 1970s. While many hippies made a long-term commitment to the lifestyle, some people argue that hippies sold out during the 1980s and became part of the materialist, self-centered consumer yuppie culture.
Skelton was not best friends with Elmo Looper. Randy W , has spoken with Elmo’s son and so have I, and Randy was told the same story told to me. Randy might not like what he was told but Im writing a series of articles on the subject.
Skelton borrowed the Bigsby drawings and he did not give them back. Harry wrote in IRON REDSKIN, that Skelton had “possession” of the drawings, which is 9/10th of the law. Murray Looper never saw the drawings again. There is also a PM Panther bike involved. . Elmo never bought any inventory of parts, the drawings contain the inventory.
The sole purpose of the drawings is to make parts, and parts make bikes, and that is why the Crocker Register exists.
The Crocker family are now up to speed on what has happened since 1970. Elmo also owned 36-61-4 and so did Murray and Billy Looper, that bike got parted out by Skelton but then Elmo’s bike 38-61-38 also got stripped of internals = 86″ knucklehead Crocker , built 7 years before CB Clausen and Hood built 80″ Knucklehead in 1948. Elmo built #38, not JD Cameron
Elmo Looper had nothing to do with Harry Sucher bike 38-61-31, Harry wrote what he wanted and no one questioned it.
Sucher, Chuck and Skelton made up most of the Crocker history
I lived with mr. Ernie Skelton and his wife Mary for about 24 years. I knew him well. I do so dislike all the bull***information now going on..I have owned 6 crockers and was personal friends with the first owner of Crocker number 4. Homer Wood’s was a good friend with whom I have personally met several times…Tell enough lies and they become fact…Good luck…Randy Wiggins…
Randy Wiggins, you dislike BS, then you won’t like this = Skelton died 1995. “24 years” would make it 1971. Skelton lived in Westminster with his wife, NOT Mary _ _ _ _ _. ‘Walneck’s” magazine is online, FREE. In 1987 you placed want ads for Crocker parts with phone and address, which was NOT Skelton’s address. Phone books are online too, FREE. If you knew Skelton so well, why didn’t you get parts direct from him (when you lived with him). Homer Wood supplied 3 photos of a 1937 Crocker that his father bought him. 2 of those photos are on this page. The front brake drum is clearly on the LEFT fork leg. The early 1936 Crockers had the front brake drum on the RIGHT fork leg, photos are available online. ‘Motorcyclist’ magazine debuted 2 photos of the first Crocker.
Does anyone have any information aboutt Elmo Looper as a racer and member of the 13 Rebels motorcycle club? Please email glen_sharpe@icloud.com
Elmo raced a JDH twin cam, for flat track. The online photo of his Crocker big tank, with black Harley WR race tanks was later converted for straight line salt racing with a British tank and stripes. Finding info means finding Rebel club newsletters or ‘Buzzz’ or ‘Motorcyclist’ magazine, dated 1946 up. Elmo’s son does not have 13 Rebels stuff. Ted Fullers daughters may still have photos and stuff. Chuck Kohlhauer’s son got photos. They were all in their 50’s in the late 1960s and Vietnam changed the mood of America overall. Elmo’s house was a meeting place up to 1969. Elmo’s last bike was a Panther custom
https://postimg.cc/cvGR0PXY
Crocker’s were advertised at 61″, $480 and $5 paint option. Engine size was not an option. Replica’s use HD con rods and 3-5/16″ pistons, which can never calculate to 61″, (+.060 = 65″). There simply is not enough Crocker connecting rods to go around therefore the replicas can only use HD, polishing HD rods does nothing to hide the con rod length.
pay attention to how many bikes have stroker plates and the sneaky ones use new longer cylinders. There is no trace of the 1935 prototype bike. According to Crocker register , Elmo Looper and Arte Smythe built 40-61-117 and Smythe owned 42-61-301.
The Looper family have never heard of Smythe and there is no trace of such person in voter, census, draft, directory yet Jack Gormley claimed in a magazine he got the address and phoned Smythe thru the Crocker Register to buy 301. another problem….. there were no mechanics working for Crocker in 1942. production of the Scooters started after Parriott took the bikes to the last big day out in 1940 and scooter production ended in 1941. Popular Science, Popular mechanics and Motorcyclist mags.
Elmo Looper never had a bike with a lever mechanism seat, no one did. Chuck Vernon claimed he had the Prototype and Elmo’s bike with 1947 pink slip, an actual signature, or one just like it ?
Elmo Loopers son has never heard of Chuck Vernon or Harry Sucher
Chuck Vernon and Ernie Skelton had no first hand stories or experience. Bigsby was a member of Trailblazers and resigned march 1963, he was not contacted for any comment on Crocker.
No attempt was made in the 1970s, 1980s or 1990s to contact Al Crocker Jnr to get the true facts about his father, the business or the bikes, instead Gene Rhynes name has been used to fortify the BS story line.
It says something about Harry Sucher’s selective research for his book and articles.
The story says the Crocker mc co was sold to Borg Warner, when ? the records don’t show that to be true at all, in fact its BS.
Harry Sucher wrote “Milwaukee Marvel” yet he did not mention Crocker using HD con rods. No historian is going to touch that story, it might even attract attention from HD. Its a no-go!
‘The Antique MC’ fall 1971 vol 10, No.3 , Harry wrote about what Skelton did, to restore his bike 38-61-31 = “HARLEY CON RODS”.
A long forgotten article but there it is, go read it.
The 2010 register has 72 + the 4 extras since. but that does not include 37-61-16, 38-61-42 and 40-61-119…. yet to fall out of the casting molds, that totals 79 so far.
As for 36-61-4, this bike went to Elmo who stroked it and then he gave it to Murray Looper in August 1951, it was painted Gold, single spring chrome forks, Indian chain guard and 249 front Guard. This went to Billy Looper as a basket case and then Murray sold it in 1980, (including hand written receipt) and Skelton parted it out (yes he did that).
The bike Randy W got had dual spring forks and god knows what chassis.
And also Homer Wood did NOT stamp his name any where on it , he had no reason to open the engine let alone stamp graffiti.
Elmo did NOT scribe his name inside the cam cover of 37-61-22, it shouldn’t be too hard to work out who did it all the graffiti.
Skelton’s last project was 39-61-107 which supposedly got NOS parts, but where from ? no one can actually present the truth.
The Bigsby drawings keep getting in the way of a good story. no one is going to say how Skelton got those drawings and who from and why and what for.
Sucher forgot the facts, he certainly did not print them
If Elmo Looper had the entire Crocker inventory in his shed, then why did Skelton need to “borrow” the Bigsby drawings ?
would it not be easier to buy parts directly from his best-est friend Elmo ?
The fact that Skelton “borrowed” the drawings is proof that there was never an inventory
Why didn’t Skelton print copies and return the original Drawings to Murray Looper ?
The Bigsby drawings are intellectual property of Al Crocker, possession of the drawings is ownership = no copy right, no royalties
Returning the drawings to Murray would be non productive
Harry Sucher wrote that Skelton had “possession” of the drawings , this is as good as a public notice. with no legal action or response, then legally the drawings belonged to Skelton. That is the statute of limitations at work.
Murray was not an AMCA member, how could he possibly read the club mag or know about ‘Iron Redskin’.
The 1971 club mag and Iron Redskin are almost word for word when mentioning the drawings
Murray asked for the return of the drawings again and again. unaware of the process under way.
He never saw the drawings again.
There is no prestige surrounding Crocker motorcycles and they were never compared to Duesenberg cars and Duesenberg car owners make no comparison to Crocker’s either.
Harry Sucher wrote about the Bigsby drawings twice, 1971 and 1977 clearly stating that Skelton had “Possession” of the drawings. Murray Looper asked for the return, but that never happened, he died 1988 and the drawings have never been mentioned again and all trace of Murray’s name has been erased. The drawings represent a whole lot more than just passing mention in Harry Sucher’s book and article. Harry made no attempt to explain where they came from and how they fell into Skelton’s hands. They are the intellectual property of Al Crocker since the day they were drawn, he paid Paul Bigsby to draw them.
Skelton wrote the Crocker Register list, which just kept getting longer up to 1995 when he died. But the list kept getting longer after he died, which means the Scam was kept alive.
Promoting a vehicle as a genuine antique when it is a replica, is Fraud. Any false papers with Elmo Looper’s name is Forgery, he never sold any bikes. He did not service, restore or supply parts for Crocker motorcycles.
His 3 bikes went to Murray Looper who wrote hand written and signed receipt’s, the only genuine proof of genuine bikes. He had a shed of Crocker’s, quite possibly the majority of survivors rescued from scrap.
Murray was not a member of any vintage club and had no connection to the Register or the people associated.
so why didn’t Harry invest in “Crocker” bikes ? too risky
‘Cycle World’ Jan 1993 , Chuck Vernon said “there were 33 of the small tank Crocker’s actually produced, 17 with the Hemi heads and the rests with parallel valve heads. Then came 15 Big tank versions in 1939 and 1940. There were 5 machines in 1941 before production was interrupted” .
This makes a total of 53 bikes but makes no allowance is made for the ‘Scoot-about’ scooters built in late 1940 until mid 1941 as recorded in Popular Mechanics, Popular Science and ‘The Motorcyclist’. There is no proof of any V twin built in 1941. For 50 years the Crocker brand has been dominated by Chuck , Skelton and Harry Sucher. The Crocker Register is unreliable , written to fit their story line, the facts don’t fit. Few bikes have a history going beyond 1970 because most of them are replicas
Hi Paris. Since you are offended by the poor telling of Crocker’s story, why not respond to T.J. Rafferty in this thread who wants to write the facts about it?
Verry interrresting, especially the comments. One apparent factual error early on puts Paul Bigsby at the Indian factory as Al Crocker’s supervisor. Crocker went from Thor to Indian in 1909 and was there for two years. Bigsby would have been 11 years old. He was a smart kid, but…
Thank you – clearly my source for that piece of info was off base…maybe it was the other way around, that Crocker was Bigsby’s supervisor at Indian…once he came of age?
No, don’t think they met till the ’20s in LA. Also, there’s some some ID confusion in the first two photos. Appears Bigsby is identified as Crocker in the second one. Btw, whose shots are those? Working on a Crocker piece for Thunder Press. Thanks. (todrafferty@gmail.com)
No, don’t think they met till the ’20s in LA. Also, there’s some some ID confusion in the first two photos. Appears Bigsby is identified as Crocker in the second one. Btw, whose shots are those? Working on a Crocker piece for Thunder Press. Thanks. (todrafferty@gmail.com)
No, don’t think they met till the ’20s in LA. Also, there’s some some ID confusion in the first two photos. Appears Bigsby is identified as Crocker in the second one. Btw, whose shots are those? Working on a Crocker piece for Thunder Press. Thanks. (todrafferty@gmail.com)
Harry Suchers book is worthless. Al Crocker (1887-1961) never worked at the Indian factory, he was selling Thor in Illinois and then sold Indians in Illinois, then was sent to S.F in 1911. Bigsby never worked at the factory. Harry Sucher and Chuck Vernon combined have spun a story which has stuck for 50 years, they are dead and gone and their BS goes on and on. The photos of Sam Parriott are both small tank models with inline valve and Hemi head. neither of these bikes are promoting the 1939 Big tank. Try and find evidence of a 1940 Crocker any where. There is a poster with Elmo Looper and his Crocker with the suggested year of “1940” written under it. The question should be how did those photos get from Elmo Loopers residence in 1969 to end up on that poster? The Crocker Register was written by Skelton and Chuck who were “Restoring” them. Try and find evidence of previous owners of 36-61-1X and 42-61-310, both BOGUS and each with $1M price tags. Neither Skelton or Chuck have any history with Crocker’s. What promotion exists of the Crocker ? The Motorcyclist mag 1936 debut, the 1938 Dual spring small tank, the 1939 Dual spring Big tank and the 1940 Parriott final horrah, followed by The Motorcyclist Oct 1940 ‘Scootabout’ release. Bigsby left in 1941 and Gene Rhyne not long after. Crockers were sold by Advance order, Homer Wood didnt say his bike was the first bike sold, there were 12 bikes ordered for 1936 . Jack Liily bought his bike in 1942 second hand and he had the photos to prove it, but his story is Bogus. and then there’s JD Cameron’s story…….
Floyd Clymers book ‘A Treasury of Motorcycles of the World’ 1965 predates the Crocker Register and says the Twin was produced for 4 years, that’s 1936 to 1939. that coincides with the Indian release of the sprung frame. Indian was Crocker’s biggest customer. The Crocker steering damper alone was $5.50. 88 of those = $484, that’s the price of a Crocker. The Scoot-about gets in the way of the narrative. Al Crocker’s grand daughters, Paul Bigsby’s daughter and the Looper family are aware of the BS that has been written. someone keeps them up to date ;0)
The business was not sold to Borg Warner. 1346 was occupied by Rob Maloney in 1946 , and still remains AAA Electric Motor Service. DuPont owned Indian from 1930 to 1945. Any contracts Crocker had expired in 1945. The “Boozefighter” bike 39-61-103 has bogus origins and then there is the “Elmo Looper” bike 40-61-117 which is also bogus, it has a lever seat mechanism that never existed and supposedly a 1947 pink slip. I tried to contact the present owner to check that signature and address but that owner is going to find out sooner or later about the bikes and he’s gonna want to get his money back , in court and thats when the whole Crocker thing is going to hit the fan. Ernest Edward Skelton (1922- 1995) was an idiot and his supporters were just as stupid. He spent the last 25 yrs of his life making Crocker parts. Replicas use Harley XA-705 / 706 con rods, .791 pins , 3-5/16″ or 3-7/16 pistons and crank shafts. This is documented in The Antique Motorcycle Vol 10 No3. Skelton used to hang out at Elmo’s house and quiz him about his Crocker days. He used HD rods for the fastest Crocker = ‘Big Bike’ May 1972 JD Cameron bought the bike and claimed he built it in 1945. Chuck wrote in the 2010 Register that JD got it from the Bigsby estate (1968). The Easyrider movie bikes were built by Ben Hardy and Cliff Vaughs, and it took 40 yrs for the truth to get out. Elmo Looper was a Choctaw Indian and this might be the reason all history has been buried for 80 yrs. He owned 36-61-4, he hot rodded it and it was the fastest bike in LA. He also had the fastest Crocker on the Dry Lakes.
Well Paris, we broke the story on the Easy Rider bikes, and would be happy to set the story straight with Crockers too!
Big Bike Magazine May 1972 = HD knuckleheads on Crocker cylinders = 5 inverted bolts converted to 4 bolt pattern. Knuck heads onto Pan cylinders , a common mod but it could only happen when the Pan came out in 1948. Elmo did it to a Crocker years before that. The Crocker Register has it listed as 38-61-38 built by Cameron. Problem, there are photos of it from the 1940s with Elmo on it, 1950s photos with Murray Looper on it.
Clauson + Hood built the first Stroker in 1948. problem = Elmo Looper and the Crocker with Knuck heads and pistons.
Bud Hood had a Truck co same time as JD Cameron, and they shared the same depot. Google maps 6329 Maywood ave Huntington park. both were Boozefighters. Cameron bought the Crocker but gutted it in the 1980s, the cases are empty today. History gone or deliberately buried.
Clymer wrote an obituary ‘Cycle’ magazine july 1961 = contains errors. This is commonly used as reference, cut n paste, further spreading the mis-info. (answer = Motorcycle Illustrated magazines 1908-1914, + Census records)
1940 ‘Motorcyclist’ mag, Pop Science and Pop Mechanics, Oct to Dec advertise the release of the ‘Scootabout’
Looking thru records it is possible to find names of the employees, which included 6 teenagers, the last one died in 2019. Mechanics weren’t needed, the Lauson motor was delivered ready to bolt in.
The AMA has a complete library of ‘The Motorcyclist’ magazine when the AMA owned it
Bikernet has posted an article full of mis-info. dates are all wrong. 36-61-1X is a replica. How is it that no one can do old fashion research any more? The last Crocker is 100 % replica yet it has a $1M price tag, it has no previous ownership before Skelton, for obvious reasons. The photo of Jack Lilly’s bike is in front of a house, the Address = “6111”, he and his mother moved into that house in 1942, according to records, in April. ‘The Antique Motorcycle’ spring 2001 article , Jack claimed the bike was photographed “new” in 1939. Physically impossible. The photo was taken in 1942 in front of the house, which can be seen on google maps, still as it was in the photo. The bike 39-61-103 is BOGUS supported by Jack Lilly’s Bogus story, another Boozefighter
https://www.bikernet.com/pages/THE_LAST_CROCKER_EVER_BUILT.aspx
Ive just read the Thunderpress article. Sure looks like support for Chuck Vernon’s replicas ?
sooner or later Bowman is gonna discover he got shafted
The factory was re-staffed in 1940, there is a list of Crocker workers , no mechanics were required to assemble the Lauson powered ‘Scootabout’. Lauson corp was sold in 1941 ending supply of motors. Paul Bigsby left in 1941 for Production patterns co , Gene Rhyne left soon after, this is all documented.
So how many Crocker V twins were built in 1941 and 1942 ? and who built them and where ?
https://www.google.co.nz/books/edition/WALNECK_S_CLASSIC_CYCLE_TRADER_JULY_1991/ZX1HwpLo5AgC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=scootabout&pg=PA35&printsec=frontcover
Kevin Duke might be receiving contact soon from the Crocker family about copyright. They have received and read the article.
The Booze fighter bike story is completely BOGUS !! He bought the bike in 1942 which makes it impossible for him to ride at Muroc in 1940. It was already 3 years old when he got it.
so either Jack Lilly was telling tales or the article is a spin .
So is it worth weaving a story when the bike went to Auction ? YES
It is unavoidable that the truth is going to get out about replica Crockers , there’s dozens of them. The magazines are full of them
Don has the lowest number 36-61-3, yet Chuck Vernon claims 36-61-4 was the first bike sold. Homer Wood made no claim that he bought the first bike. He wrote a letter which is in the 2010 Register, he said there was only one Prototype. Chucks bike is in a few magazines labelled as a 1939 with dual spring forks. The same bike turned into a 1936 with single spring fork , 36-61-1X. There are plenty of photos of that bike/s. He made the mistake of stamping it “36” . The Crocker Register has number patterns that stick out like dog balls
…… and then Jim Lattin “found” , “prototype” 36-61-A , just to be a pain in Chuck’s ass. Chuck listed that bike at the end of the Register list, when it should have bumped Chucks bike. Puts a question mark next to each bike owned by Lattin
I’ve heard many stories about Jim Lattin, but only met him once, 15 years ago. His Don Johns Cyclone is amazing. Rumors swirled about some of his other bikes…
According to Crocker expert Richard Morris, the prototype/experimental V-twins did not have their cases engine-stamped. However the 1X that the author of this site says sold for $1M US, did have an 1X engine stamp…. and that was Chuck Vernon “find’…. Interesting. Morris also claims that #5 he and Pat James finagled is a combo of bikes 36-61-1 , #2 and #3. Even more interesting… !
Even more interesting than that, Crocker 36-61-6 that Morris recently sold, did not ever originate from the source he claims it did! fact.
The Only Known X bike does not have any stamps or identification other than the clamshell tower says “Crocker ” I like how many of these comments are from non owners or mechanics. Most of this is all false. Ernie had no money. What retard thinks in 1970 a bike worth $800 that someone with zero mechanical abilty would make ten bikes. All of us that knew Ernie can testify he was broke and moved out of his apt and lived free with Mary. He also had to halk his bike to Morris for two years as he had to fix his truck all Ernie ever made was an inner primary and Running boards. He wanted to make the outer but Cook Machine was too expensive. You do not have to put base plates under a Crocker with HD rods I own three Crockers now and have owned seven total. There are some shananagins but not as many before 1989. Lattin did make bikes and Chuck was a bit of a controller and yes 1X was Art Smyths bike. It was a 1939 model Art was a Canadian WWI vetran that lived in La Mirada back in the 70s he had a power plus we called him Shitty Smiddy. I saw his daughter about 20 years ago she woukd becin her 90s now. Jack Redeman sold me Smiddys four he told me he how got his name from working on Peet boats before the war. Paul De Orleans I invite you to come to my house we will dissassemble two Running Crockers that are well known bikes. Never trust anyone writing on here that has never seen a Crocker in person sat on one or ridden one. All this from people 30 years of age with zero experience . They are just bikes . All of this crap shows Jealousy that is all it is.
I’d be more than happy to take a look at your Crockers! I don’t claim to be an expert at all – I’ve seen many and ridden two, did the research for this story from published sources, but have never dug into one mechanically…that’s when you really know a bike, it’s true.
I do know Brough Superiors as I’ve owned seven and currently have one – they are much easier to fake than a Crocker as their J.A.P. motors are fairly available. That said, the Club is strong and knows exactly what’s what. Still plenty of rumors and accusations, but a phone call to Club Registrar Mike Leatherdale usually sorts things out. Too bad there’s so much bad blood in the Crocker scene – I don’t know who to believe as I have no horse in the race.
Yes Paul the Brough is a fine machine I have owned a few but never the 680 as you know Leland won’t part with his dads. The Crocker owners are not infighting to much it is the people that haven’t the wherewithal to own one. It resorts into a jealous feverish mauling. You knew most of the players from the late 70s. I believe that not allot of the owners were bad but a few saw profiteering off the backs of dreamers. I knew you had riden the old Wiggins bike sold to the late owner in San Diego. The Brough is a different machine and again in a Norton featherbed even more. The Crocker rides different sits different and sounds different. It is like comparing a HRD to a 100 they do different things and are almost opposite as Marty Dickerson said. I have a machine that you need to ride this next year to Pebble Richard will contact you regarding it. It is one of McLeod old bikes. Keep the wind behind you Paul!
Time has proven that replicating Crockers in 1970 has turned out to be profitable. Chuck, Sucher and Skelton created the Register, that does not mean it is genuine in any way. The factory did not have the staff to make 70 odd bikes in 4 years. There was only 2 mechanics in 1940, the other 9 employees were not, they assembled Scooters. Homer Woods letter in the 2010 Crocker Register has genuine letter head, but then the letter came from Wiggins. so it is only just possible , that it is genuine. The letter claims Homer swapped heads in 1937. Im writing about that bike too. once owned by Elmo and then Murray Looper. The only photos that exist of 36-61-4 are from Homer, Elmo and Murray, before it was sold (with receipt) and Skelton dismantled it for patterns, then he assembled basket cases
Crocker owners claim the Crocker rods were weak so they replace them with stronger HD rods. Skelton’s creation 41-65-253 was in ‘MC collector’ magazine with capacity 69.75 ci , that’s 3-7/16″ x 3-5/8″ using HD +.060″ pistons and how the hell did “65” get stamped on the cases ? and who built the bike in 1941 ? There was only 2 mechanics present at the factory. Chucks creation 40-61-117 was supposedly built by Elmo Looper and Art Smyth, problem is Elmo’s son has never heard of Smyth and there are no photos of Elmo with a bike with a cantilever seat , for GOOD REASON. Elmo’s son never heard of Chuck Vernon, but he did get a phone call from Wiggins. If Crockers dont need stroker plates with HD rods, then why not ? recast cylinder height? There are recast cylinders for many vintage brands but not Crocker ? It would be suspicious if Crockers did NOT have new recast cylinders. There are plenty of examples of Crocker with stroker plates, so what rods are they using ? VL or UL and why ? There is no example of a Stroker from the factory. Dale Walkslers , Gallagher bike #22 , had a healthy set of stroker plates, pics of #113 are on the net with good size ones
Skelton was called “Mr Crocker”. ‘CycleWorld’ Jan 2008 has the story including Wiggins and Skelton rebuilding #107 with “NOS” parts. Skelton was paid good money, as all “rebuilders” are. “NOS” parts did not originate from Elmo Looper or Murray Looper. Most vintage bike owners pay a gear maker, to cut new gear sets if there is no aftermarket supply. There only needs to be one original set of gears. Michael Schacht and 1346venice have proven that gear sets can be manufactured, long after the last 1939 left the factory. Schacht had about 20 sets, were they all “NOS” too ? So whos Art Smyth ? = this Crocker ‘thing’ just gets weirder
I uploaded individual names and files of Crocker factory employees, from 1940 ‘Scootabout’ manufacture, plus 1940 Census info. None of them had previous mc manufacture experience, the younger ones were fresh out of school. Woody Mount worked at a Macaroni factory (1940 census) before being hired by Al Crocker (1940 draft card). I have a list of the mechanics who built the V-twin 1936-1939. Thats four years of manufacture, NOT seven years ! 1940 census records and Draft cards show they were no longer employed by Al Crocker
So people still read, ok then. Lattin constructed/ paid someone to build 36-61-A. He also paid someone to paint Harry Sucher’s 38-61-31 in Highway Patrol colors to support Harry’s bogus story of the 10 patrol bikes. “and they gave good service” he wrote. Lattin’s ’36 and Chuck’s ’36 are like magnets with the same polarity, they are so much alike, Chuck listed Lattin’s bike at the opposite end of the Register. Lattin also bought Chuck’s fakery Bigsby OHV Indian scout which Mike Wolfe bought. An article was written 20 yrs ago to prop up that bike. Wolfe might have a hard time flogging that one off. ‘Caveat Emptor’. It looks like Keith Ball is going to stick with the “1942” story on Bikernet. Someone should check the WW2 draft records to see who was working at the Crocker factory, then check the 1940 Census records to see who was a machinist or mechanic = NONE! except Bigsby, Rhyne and Mount. so who built the 1940, 1941, 1942 Crocker mc ?
Chuck Vernon claimed he got his truck load of bikes in 1970 from Art Smyth of Henderson Nevada. There is no Draft card for such a person, no census records, no vote Reg, and no connection to Elmo Looper as claimed by Chuck, and no Crocker inventory. Art Smyth did NOT get an inventory from Elmo Looper because Elmo did not have a parts inventory. Murray Looper’s family remember Chuck arriving and buying the truck load, yet Chuck and everyone else has forgotten Murray Looper. Elmo Looper did not own any motorcycles in mid 1950s to 1967. Elmo’s son has never heard of Art Smyth. Photos of Chucks 36-61-1X engine stamp are on the net. If that is a fake then that is a good example of what has been going on. Harry Sucher already wrote 2 articles in 1971 AMCA & CAMA, about Skelton’s patterns, he sold “Crocker” basket cases. No one can explain where all the gear sets came from that Skelton sold. He owned his house at 8101 ,21st Westminster, then 11530 Toerge Drive La Mirada, when was Skelton broke ? He restored mc and “Crockers” for MONEY! < thats not broke. The Motorcyclist magazine Oct 1940 has the 'Scootabout' debut, there were only 2 mechanics employed at the Crocker factory, (*do RESEARCH that one*) so who built the 1940, 1941 and 1942 Crocker V-twins and who stamped them ? Has anyone checked the yellow pages 1940 ? There was only the 'Scootabout', no promotion of V-twins. Carriker & Koons were agents until 1939 for a good reason, there were no more Crockers. I am very interested in more information about Art Smyth and his draft card. Im writing an article on Jack Lilly's 1939 Crocker, using his own photos. Very different history compared to what has been printed in Mags and the internet. JD Cameron's 1938 Crocker turned into a 1939 some how but with a higher engine number, like magic!. Jack Gormley claimed in magazine he bought 42-61-301H from Art Smyth of Nevada. Who? and what Crockers were built in 1942 ? and who built them ? I have accumulated a list of Machinists plus Mechanics who worked at the Crocker factory from 1936 to 1939 but left. Al Crocker had orders for 12 motors in 1936 and that is the production capacity of the factory work force and factory. so how many did Bob Mcleod own ? there is only one photo so far of what appears to be a 1938 small tank. There are no photos of Bob Ross with a Crocker, he never owned one, they are replicas.
chucks claim is that the prototype was bolted to a 1935 Indian Chief. There is no way to fit the engine in a 3 point mounting yet he stuck with the story. At least Jim Lattin had George Hood bolt his replica engine into a Harley JD. At least Lattin had more brains than Chuck. The claim is that Crocker gear shifter claws were weak and bent or broke. If this is/was true, then once a Crocker has suffered that break down, the entire machine is left useless. the engine cannot be used in an Indian or HD 4 speed frame. That means it was scrap. The 2010 Crocker Register has #3 #4 #5 #6 #7 #8 #9 #10 #11 #12 #13 #14 AND 36-61-#25 AND Chucks creation #36-61-1X, that’s a total of 14 , not including #1 and #2, that would be 16 ! That’s a 33 % increase WOW!!. Al Crocker said he had orders for 12 motors. Chuck, Sucher and Skelton pushed it too far. Homer Wood never claimed to be the first customer because he wasn’t. Other owners were already racing at Muroc in April 1936, against Knuckleheads which were delivered in March. Homer said he test rode one before placing the order for Crocker.
Hey … seriously ‘ Paris ‘ since you seem to believe you know so much about Crocker motorcycle history …
how’s about putting your time , money , effort and mouth on the line by …
WRITING A DAMN BOOK rather than blathering and blogging which neither has ay genuine substance ( ephemeral is an understatement ) nor does it put your proverbial posterior on the line
e.g. Either put up ( write the damn book thats so seriously overdue ) or shut up …
Sheesh …. and I thought I posted too much at times …..
Oh .. and FYI … as a professional musician and guitarist well studied in guitar history … especially electric guitar history … guaranteed I know more than the lot of you when it comes to the realities of ‘ BlowHard Bigsby ‘ as he’s come to be know over the decades
Mr “Guitar slinger” can you explain why there is no evidence of a 1941 or 1942 Crocker V twin?
They only exist in the Crocker register, written by Harry Sucher, Chuck Vernon and Ernie Skelton, the “creators”.
Autolite parts catalogs are available to anyone online. Parts are listed for 1938 – 1940 Crocker = Coil, points distributor, and generator.
https://www.vintagemoparts.com/product/1938-1951-autolite-service-parts-catalog-pdf/
The American WW2 draft records show that the mechanics working at the factory up to 1940, had left during 1940 and were working at other premises for other employers. Draft cards are signed and dated too. Ive already posted the draft cards of the new employees including Woody Mount. Most were teenagers, employed to build the 1940 Crocker Scooter. I can list them here if you need. Ive already listed the names elsewhere on the net.
Its 2023 and the internet is available to anyone including YOU!
“Put up or shut up”, you mean Ssshhhh! about the Repop Crockers ? Yea Ill continue to ‘put up’ posts online
Slinger, Draft records, Census records, Birth and death records are available to anyone, including YOU!
So how old would you be, to know Paul Bigsby if he died in 1968?
The new Crocker ‘Scootabout’ was advertised in October 1940, ‘Motorcyclist’ magazine, as well as the 1940 LA yellow pages and LA directory. The same time the V twin production ended.
Historic fact =
https://www.google.co.nz/books/edition/WALNECK_S_CLASSIC_CYCLE_TRADER_JULY_1991/ZX1HwpLo5AgC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=crocker+scootabout&pg=PA35&printsec=frontcover
Mary Bigsby is the only person who knew Paul Bigsby. Calling him “BlowHard Bigsby” isnt fitting at all. Norm Hartford and Bigsby brought in short track racing in 1931. Everything he achieved is recorded history. He did alright. Carl Bigsby also played a part. The Crocker family have had people approach them, wanting to write books but the family back off when the person is basically trying to add provenance to their own bikes, plus the use of fake history originating from Harry Sucher and Chuck Vernon. A well known big spender was the last one to recently try…… FAIL.
“Indian john” … lol. Yet another head fake from PJ. Yes, Patrick, not everyone has the ‘wherewithal’ to suffer crooks and fakes… not to mention spinners of humongous porky pies too, mate. But alas that’s the world in which we now live….
And talk about bad blood… I recall when “Indian John” offered to locate me a barn full of Velocettes – with some hanging from the rafters! — that barn supposedly located on a hillside near Santa Cruz. A barn story. Recall that, ‘Indian’? Perhaps that will ring a bell for you. But I’d imagine ‘The Fabulous Baron von Jameshausen’ tells so many amazing porkies, he has trouble keeping track of them all…! 🙂 Regards
PS all that crap Morris deleted from F book is well and safely archived.
Well Paul D’whatever here is somehow shy to approve posts about Baron von Jameshausen and the humongous lies the crooked piece of former Fresno sh*t screes….? that’s funny.
Well the “1942 Big Tank” currently up for auction (august 2022) is quite obviously another repop. Anything after 1939 is 1000% suspect and beside the cantilever seat, short front end, stamp, and *fact* that Skelton/Vernon were simply faking numbers in the book & recycling piles of old spares and frames as original Crockers, this one apparently is 100% repop all the way through, based on details. It’s well know that it’s far more profitable to pass these reproductions off as original than to outright admit they are reproductions; and the fact that more Crocker V-twins have “survived” than were ever originally produced is the ultimate proof of the fakery. Regardlesss, apparently the moneybags out there really don’t care. These guys will pay the price for something they can “pretend” is an original machine, knowing that it’s not… and that’s the true shame of the Crocker story, and what things have devolved to.
Dunno whos who here but . I like how “indian John” has the ability to edit. What happened ? #62 probably. A theoretical 14 bikes per year for 4.5 years = 63. Engine number 39-61-63 just happens to be Skeltons. #62 Smith, #61 Cameron. Camerons bike is BOGUS, he never owned a Hemi head in his life time, it was a 1938 Vertical Valve, there are photos . Skeltons is BOGUS, so where does that leave #62 squeezed in the middle ? BOGUS! .The chance of 3 consecutive numbers surviving the WW2 Scrap march is laughable but also the figures are too high. #42-61-410 , just happens to be Skeltons , where exactly did Skelton find all these Crockers ? It will be interesting if some prize idiot buys #310 but then someone has to keep the ‘game’ going and swallow that pill. Anyone can go to WW2 draft records and find the names of the employees from 1940 onwards. Anyone can check online Yellow pages and see the release of the Crocker ‘Scootabout’ in 1940. Harry and Chuck might have had full control of the narrative in the 1970s but today everyone has access to the net. The names of the V-twin mechanics are recorded and the Census and draft records show they left Crocker in late 1939. The Crocker Register has all the answers, its full of consecutive numbers. Chuck named Skelton “Mr Crocker” . Can anyone guess why? So where did Huntzinger get all these “original parts” from ? Elmo Looper didnt have them. Elmo owned 36-61-4 and then Murray owned it, the ‘Gold Crocker’. Elmo Looper did NOT own 36-61-7 , that’s a BOGUS Skelton creation. ‘The Motorcyclist’ magazine 1936 has it printed that there were “12 Motors” ordered NOT 14, which means the Crocker Register is FAKE. 12 units per year for 4 years = 48 . #49 just happens to be Bob Mcleods, #50 supposedly Elmo Loopers = NO IT AINT , its BOGUS!
https://www.fold3.com/search?docQuery=(keywords:crocker+motorcycle) key words = ‘Crocker motorcycle’ = results Ramos, Lilge, Ellison, Pierce, Duvick, Cameron, Procetto, Nathan. Most were teenagers. Cameron was a Chauffeur. Woodrow Wilson Mount was the only other employee. Paul Adelbert Bigsby left Crocker after scooter production ended in 1941. Eugene Alexander Rhyne left in 1942. Bigsby and Rhyne were the only mechanics still employed after 1939. Who built the 1940, 1941, 1942 Crocker V-twins? =Ernest Edward Skelton and company, in the 1970s, 1980s, 1990s …….
The names of the V-twin Mechanics from 1936 to 1939 are also listed in the draft records, and none of them worked for Al Crocker in 1940 when Scooter production began.
‘The Scooter Bible’ has been released with what appears to be a fake advert on page 39. < There's nothing new with fake Crocker adverts
Twenty years ago fake adverts were created for the 41′ Scootabout and 1941 Crocker Big tank. The AMCA magazine has the 1939 Crocker advert reprinted in the 1970s. Hard to make that go away. It was used as the basis for the fake 1941 adverts. There was no such thing as a Deluxe model, the Crocker had nothing more to offer.
According to Sucher, maybe a total of 8 to 10 Crockers — with some claim to originality — were in existence as of 1971. How many of those from half a century ago would have survived until today?! Laugh. Which means that the lion’s share of Crocker bikes in existence today are fakers — whether Skelton’s creations, or otherwise… and just as the auction house discovered last August. (Hope I cost Morris et al dudes a few benjamins/shekels!!) Now that the DEA informer of Ventura is gone, wonder who will get his! At least Hansen’s has some claim to originality somewhere… so no wonder the Land Baron of Brisbane has his corroded eye on it! 🙂 And … hey… how come no one wants to know who Art Smyth is??? I write too! All writers have big egos – kind of like Crocker guys – so Art is offended! Baron Von Jamesenhausen must have thought I was so inconsequential the tale spinner can’t recall me! That’s down under funny, and stellar… and typical. But PJ can always lie and make up a name and some sh^^t.. Art
So who’s Art Smyth? (or GuitarSlinger)
Man great read. Just love all the comments. What’s the history on Elmo Loopers Crocker?
Did Shunk make performance cams for Crockers?
Great education 👏
Buyer beware 😎
Elmo died Nov 1969 from cancer. Elmo’s bikes were stored in Murray Loopers shed which were sold in 1970 to CHUCK VERNON! (< very close time to funeral). John Cameron bought the Knucklehead Crocker engine and claimed he built it in 1940s. Most guys would consider that to be VERY UNCOOL. = 'Big Bike' magazine May 1972. Elmo converted two, 1936 Hemi-heads to Parallel valves < He was the only guy to do that. There are Photos as evidence too. Murray's bike was sold in 1980, engine number 36-61-4. Homer Wood had no connection to 36-61-4. Take a close look at the photos of him on this page. The front drum brake is on the LEFT FORK LEG = It is a 1937 Crocker. 1936 Crocker had Right side drum brake. Fred Schunk is in the business directory (online) from 1934 to 1940 when production ended. He was listed as an employee of A. H. Crocker. There needs to be evidence (AMA Motorcyclist magazine) of Crockers and race results from speed trials at Muroc, for there to be any Schunk performance cams. Rosamond results don't count as of early 1940. There were only 12 bikes built per year. Chuck Vernon made the mistake of saying 53 bikes were built (33 small tanks and 20 big tanks). Equivalent to 12 units for 4.5 years. 'Cycle World' January 1993, page 57 =https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=eTH-0DNDblEC&pg=PA55&dq=chuck+vernon&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjz8q-HxaSFAxVMr1YBHYY6Dqw4ChDoAXoECAcQAg#v=onepage&q=chuck%20vernon&f=false
The first advert for the Crocker 'Scootabout' can be found online, by anyone, in the L.A Times September 1st, 1940. Crocker V-twins were obsolete by 1940. Steel restrictions = August 1941 = no more Crocker scooters and Bigsby left.
‘Motorcyclist’ magazine April 1939, page 9 covers the 1939 Motorcycle show, Pasadena, held March 17th to 19th. Bill Johnson’s shop, ‘British & American Motors’, displayed a new 1939 Crocker Big-tank. Production of the small tank ended in 1938, not good for anyone who claims they own a “Real” 1939 Crocker small-tank < NO SUCH THING!! There are ten listed in the Crocker register = OUCH!! The 'Motorcyclist' magazine is a gold mine.
This person claiming funny business (yes just *one* person) has never been in the same room with a beautiful woman — much less a Crocker motorcycle. He knows nothing about the mechanics or how these amazing machines work. And Crocker folks are among the most honest on earth! The denigrators are just jealous, and poor… Fact.
I just received a complimentary Crocker engine stamp number set of the ‘Skelton’ font. The numbers are 9mm tall… anyone know if that is the correct size?
Injun Jack, name one person who owns a genuine Crocker. Anything connected to Bob Mcleod, Bob Ross, Ernie Skelton, Chuck Vernon, Johnnie Eagles, Jim Lattin is a replica. 1940 Census records online show that Bob Mcleod was still at school = He did not buy a new Crocker in 1936 or any new Crockers. Production ended with the 1940 model in September 1939. The 1940 Yellow pages are available online to anyone who can read. The ‘L.A Times’ is available online, Sunday, September 1, 1940, the ‘Scootabout’ was released = no more V-twin production. Business directory records show the Crocker mechanics and salesmen no longer worked for Al Crocker. All evidence shows that todays “Crocker” folk are running a big dollar scam and anyone who wants out of the game have jumped ship.
I absolutely agree and wonder what will happen now that their cover has been blown.
FFS! 3 yrs ago I asked a guy in Australia, who is Montoya? He did not know, so HTH would I know? How does Montoya know the inside story? Is he owed money? was he screwed over? Did he discover his bike is fake? and who is “Anonymous” and all these other nameless posters? who’s Art Smyth? I don’t care! The internet allows access to all the old records and info for FREE. L.A times is FREE, the Crocker ‘Scootabout’ was advertised September 1940. The mechanics no longer worked for Al Crocker. Draft cards show where they worked in 1940 and the 1940 census records are also available FREE. Floyd Clymer’s book “A Treasury of MC of the World” is FREE to read online = Crocker production was 4 years. Anyone can find info online FREE.
I know montoya’s identity, presently in hiding in Mexico right now. formerly of Brisbane.
Wtf who is running the scam now
Paul didn’t like the thing about the register fraud maybe 😂
More like three years.
By the end of 1939 machinists could earn much more contracting to military plants in LA than they could at 1346 Venice. By the way Paul; what did you think of that?
I’m not an expert on Crocker history, but find this whole thread fascinating. I’m happy to let people post their thoughts and even better, their research. I do know that auction houses are VERY reluctant to sell a Crocker since Paris Strickland began pointing out the inaccuracies and outright falsehoods of Crocker collector/restorer/recreators… something about having to return buyers’ money is distasteful.
Yes, and it’s interesting (peculiar?) that no auction house will take these since 2021, and the revelations before and since. A few numbers thought to be in play, evidently are not. It’s a developing story so thanks Paul for allowing even controversial topics to be posted.
^^^ so who are these guys, Paul? I have had no interaction with any Auction house or vice versa, what for?
Is this what you want Paul? = V-TWIN = https://www.advrider.com/f/threads/crocker-v-twin.1742219/
SCOOTABOUT = https://www.advrider.com/f/threads/crocker-scootabout.1559737/
SPEEDWAY = https://www.advrider.com/f/threads/crocker-speedway.1668515/
so who is “Montoya” then? The writing style is typical AMERICAN = READ IT! (2020). Some dumb ass thinks it is me = NOT AMERICAN! And who are these anonymous replies? And also, some info was pulled from one of my articles.
Auction houses were tipped off by someone. Someone nameless wants to throw a spanner in the works.
Here is the article I wrote in 2019 and uploaded to S&S forum. It was there for 4 years.
TOOTIES SCOOTER https://www.advrider.com/f/threads/tooties-scooter.1750013/
Info from this article was stolen and used by who? MONTOYA
Montoya seems to be a bad apple? …quite the naughty one!
The real Al Crocker https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/188566163/albert-henry-crocker married in 1913. Never worked at the Indian factory. Paul Bigsby https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/242245266/paul-adelbert-bigsby never worked at the Indian factory.
L.A Times Sunday 1st September 1940. First advert for the Crocker Scootabout https://archive.org/details/sim_los-angeles-times_los-angeles-times_1940-09-01_59/page/n33/mode/2up?q=crocker+scootabout
10 June 1938 Homer Jesse Wood gained Bachelor of Science in Engineering https://campuspubs.library.caltech.edu/2495/
29 June Homer J Wood turned 21
26 September 1938, Homer Wood attended MIT, Massachusetts
Homer Wood’s father paid for Caltech, MIT and the Crocker. Homer Winfrey Wood 1880 – 1976, owned Newspapers and was not short of money.
Homer looks at least 2 years older at Muroc or Rosamond because the window of opportunity was after 25 August 1939, which means April 1940. Which makes him 23 years old.
1940, Homer was working for Menasco Mfg, Burbank.
10 June 1940, Homer returned to MIT to complete his Masters degree in Mechanical Engineering.
Attendance records available from MIT online
What did Homer get for his 21st Birthday?
Paris, did you read my article on Albert Menasco? https://thevintagent.com/2023/09/11/albert-menasco-pirate-of-the-sky/
Small world…
well have now. good stuff
A 1937 Hemi Crocker 61 with the front Drum brake on the left fork leg and a polished tank panel option of 1939.
From 1935 to 1940 Al Crocker sold ‘Used’ and refurbished Motorcycles with new Battery, Tyres and a paint respray.
Homer’s bike does not have a 1936 or 1937 paint option. The Decal and paint on small tanks got worn off by knee contact.
1936 decal https://postimg.cc/F7WXrkvk right drum brake
1936 decal https://postimg.cc/T5GS7XDn right drum brake
1937 decal https://postimg.cc/XGdCxRfK
1937 decal https://postimg.cc/WqRdZznP
Homer was the second owner. The previous owner most likely traded the bike for a 1938 Parallel Valve model released September 1937 or a 1939 Big Tank, released September 1938
Caltech 1938 yearbook page 22 https://campuspubs.library.caltech.edu/2256/
Homer Winfrey Wood https://www.cal-press.org/homer-w-wood Money
1938 paint option with same decal as 1937, still using magneto https://postimg.cc/1nQkD7KC
1939 polished tank panels and no decal https://postimg.cc/DStkww4K
Homer Wood bike with polished tank panel https://postimg.cc/MvF8nNz0
No other photos of small tanks show the same paint option in 1936, 1937 or 1938.
Homer’s bike had a respray
Elmo Looper updated and converted Two 1936 Crockers to Parallel valve, with gear pumps and modified the forks too. He also converted a Crocker using early HD knuckle heads and gear pumps.
John Cameron bought the Crocker-HD engine off Chuck Vernon in 1970 and claimed he built it in 1940. The bike was presented in Big Bike mag 1972 https://postimg.cc/6Tw80Hwg
The Looper family have photos from the 1940s to the 1960s https://postimg.cc/CnFdxKmS
John Cameron bought a used 1938 Parallel Valve small tank in 1940 https://postimg.cc/MvgxsTVH
Murray Looper sold 36-61-4 in 1980 with a signed receipt. Homer Wood had no connection to the bike. Homers own photos prove that.
Murray Loopers bike https://postimg.cc/Ty13McgR = 36-61-4, the Gold Crocker
Elmo Loopers bike https://postimg.cc/xNMdpTHM
Both engines converted and updated to Parallel valve heads, cams + gear pumps. Elmo used 1939 – 42 Indian barrel springs, Crocker early fork trees and dual spring fork legs. result = no head light mounts. 1955 Buick Century gives idea of date.
Elmo was the only person who converted a Crocker Hemi to Parallel Valve heads. As soon as the supply of 3.250″ dome pistons were used up, the Hemi heads were obsolete. They used .750″ pins. Not even enough time for the “heads to crack”.
The only option was HD dome pistons and Rods with .791″ pins. https://postimg.cc/YvLB7yjq
1963 Death Valley, Elmo’s sister and her husband with the HD/Crocker/Norton “Roadholder” https://postimg.cc/CnFdxKmS = 9 years before John Cameron’s Big Biker magazine May 1972
The Norton had HD 4 speed, clutch, 2 row primary and therefore HD engine sprocket. Cameron used a crash box! and added HUGE stroker plates as shown.
The Elmo Looper engine with Knuckleheads originated from the 1940s with photos as proof and sold in 1970 with a signed receipt by Murray Looper.
No connection to this Triumph TRW https://postimg.cc/Ff9SP4NR
While researching the history of the 1932 Crocker-Indian, I had to take a look at the magazine, ‘Indian Motorcycle Illustrated’ #4. 1994.
The claim was Crocker OHV kits were sold as “machined” and “unmachined” with Aluminium heads = https://postimg.cc/t1QLVBdp
One problem with the story is that Milby Jones supposedly converted his 1931 Scout 101 to OHV, a year after Al Crocker released the (1932) Crocker-Indian 30:50 = https://postimg.cc/w7PK9q7t
The BIG problem with the story is that Milby Jones was born 31 March 1920, which would mean he was 10 years old when the last Indian Scout 101 was sold and 12 years old when AL Crocker released the Crocker-Indian 30:50 speedway bikes = https://www.debaptiste.com/obituary/6300681
……. BOGUS!
Retrobike #40 is the only magazine that I have found showing the Australian bike 2014.
https://pocketmags.com/retro-and-classic-bike-magazine/issue-40
Joel Marks is mentioned but not Les Forgacs (1962-2022), well known machinist, mechanic, restorer. The mag only shows 2 photos of the new 2014 bike, which should have been the main feature bike, not the other 3 bikes
I wrote an article on Bob Mcleod, but I had to dump it once I read the 1940 Census records. He was 18 and still at school!
Orders for the 1936 Crocker V-twin were taken in September 1935. Bob was almost 14 years old at that time.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/239384399/john-robert-mcleod
Where the rubber hits the road is when an non-invasive XFR scanner portable spectrometer can compare a known good genuine Crocker alloy casting to any other, of course including the plethora of engine castings wrt modern fakes. I know (factually) that a respected insurer is looking into this. Meanwhile the reputable auction houses generally refuse to accept these bikes on auction… (nothing to do with “paris” by the way). I suspect the culprit. in part, is that naughty one: MONTOYA — causing all these issues… dang.
regards to all.
[Including one James, Patrick … of course :]
^^^^ There is something going on in the background. Someone has tipped of the auction houses.
Elmo Looper’s big tank with Harley WR race tanks, brit oil tank below the seat, Indian Scout chain guard magneto ignition. https://postimg.cc/0rN2jYK8 Photo taken 1948 at that address.
The same bike converted for racing in 1950. Brit tank with oil tank above cylinder heads. https://postimg.cc/14YRq8DD
The other bike has Tombstone tail light, which dates the photo from 1947 – 1954.
Chuck Vernon’s tribute bike with cantilever seat and frame, straight tail light, brass Knick knacks. The forks have 1936 – 1937 single spring fork blades with holes for head light stalks. https://postimg.cc/V0tYkrM8
photo by Buck Lovell. I tried to email for a few years but he committed suicide, August 2023.
Chucks bike has no history with Elmo Looper and Art Smyth has no connection to Elmo or his bikes and parts.
For the past 5 decades Gene Rhyne’s name has been repeatedly associated with the Crocker V-twin.
The problem with that story is that Rhyne was living in Massachusetts and then moved to California in 1940, to South Serrano ave and then to South Burlington, which was 2 blocks from the Crocker shop. Which would indicate he moved closer to work.
https://postimg.cc/TLhJ1jSG
It was physically impossible for Rhyne to work on any Crocker V-twins from 1935 to 1940.
He had nothing to do with the bikes and didn’t even live in California.
Al Crocker hired staff in 1940, to build the Crocker ‘Scootabout’ ready for sale by September 1940. This is supported by the Yellow pages, LA Times, Popular Mechanics and the Motorcyclist magazine.
The LA times has Gene Rhyne as a resident of Massachusetts up to early 1940.
Today the internet allows anyone to fact check the “History”. The only reliable magazines have been from the 1930’s and 1940s. Everything from 1970 onward has been a waste of ink and paper.
Yes, it’s called fact checking, and is very easy to do now, at least regarding official records. But, such records do fix certain parameters clearly…
Written in pencil, Rhynes draft card was amended (5-6-1942), when he moved to 1246 Cordova ave, Glendale to work for Kinner Aircraft. No longer working for AL Crocker.
LA Times April 1940 = Rhyne of Massachusetts, Petrali of Milwaukee. Both moved to California, like many others after War was declared in September 1939.
https://postimg.cc/JyvsGBGX
So, Rhyne was hired by Al Crocker early to mid 1940 before production started on the ‘Scootabout’.
For the past 5 decades the name “Albert G Crocker” has been dropped in Magazines, books and now the internet.
Albert G Crocker had no connection to motorcycles. He was a rancher and then retired as a “Carpenter”.
The Business directory has him placed right above another person, “Albert H Crocker”, at 1346 Venice blvd.
https://postimg.cc/tYBZvwSC
Today mags and books still refer to “Albert G Crocker” which shows no effort at all towards research.
The BS narrative.
Like someone already said “Tell enough lies and they become fact” << This has proven to be true for the past 50 years. The main source of false info has been the AMCA magazine, "The Antique Motorcycle".
What happened to Journalism?
As late as 2022, the name “Albert G Crocker” (1882-1962) is still used. The Rancher and carpenter.
“The Scooter Bible” pg22, 38, 39, 198
https://www.google.co.nz/books/edition/The_Scooter_Bible/kaV2EAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=scootabout&pg=PA38&printsec=frontcover
The big problem is that the only surviving Crocker ‘Scootabout is claimed to be a 1939 model.
Production did not start until mid 1940. This is confirmed with ‘Motorcyclist’ mag, LA yellow pages, Popular Mechanics.
In 1939, Floyd Clymer had “Clymer-Indian Sales Co” at 434 West Pico Blvd and 5960 Sunset Blvd. He was selling Powell Streamliners. Al Crocker was selling ‘Used’ & refurbished Harley-Davidsons and Indians as well as his own V-twins.
Herb J Singe (1926 – 2020) must have commissioned the manufacture of his 1939 Crocker ‘Scootabout’, because Al Crocker certainly did not build any Scooter in 1939.
The talented metal man who built Herb’s replica will never be known unless the name jumps up. Otherwise, Herb’s Scooter is just a faker. Beautiful looking Scooter but still FAKE
All scooter books reprint the same info and pics of Herb’s replica
AMCA ‘Antique Motorcycle’ vol-13 no 4, 1974
page 25 = Leonard Edwin Mathews (1910 – 2001) https://postimg.cc/mtBzGdyK
Mathews claimed he owned the bike for over 50 years. The article was 1974, so, minus 50 plus years, would make it 1924 or less. He was born 23 October 1910, which would make him less than 14 years old when he bought it. Supposedly Don Johns bike.
Believable story? = unlikely BS
He said he “will not part with it”, so he sold it for something worth a lot more = money.
https://postimg.cc/f3npkLZb
L.E Mathews owned Crocker 38-61-32, as the first owner. He sold it for something worth a lot more = money
‘Easyriders’ May 1991 pg120,
‘Indian-Illustrated’ Summer 1996 pg53,
‘Walnecks Classic Cycle Trader’ Nov 2013 pg24
more BS
And then there is Harry Sucher’s consecutive number 38-61-31.
The survival rate of these bikes increased every decade from 1970 onwards.
https://postimg.cc/hJLRg0r3
https://postimg.cc/v1RNZvjZ
https://postimg.cc/mcQ6zHfN
https://postimg.cc/VdgfMJ1w
The Harry and Skelton bikes both have straight tip fenders of 1936 to 1938 and dual spring trees, but the fork legs had the mounting holes for the Headlight gimbal of single spring 1936 to 1937 Hemi.
Where did Skelton get Hemi parts?
Harry Sucher’s consecutive engine number 38-61-31
https://postimg.cc/RJJYJrC2
Elmo Looper used dual spring fork legs (1938-1940) on singe spring fork trees (1936-1937)
Elmo did this to 2 bikes only. There is no hole for the head light gimbal on the legs and no head light bracket on the fork tree. He welded a bracket between both fork legs for the head light mount.
https://postimg.cc/q6KmM8jT
Ernie Skelton did the opposite, using (1936-1937) fork legs and dual spring trees (1938-1940), repops of course.
The hole for the headlight gimbal can clearly be seen with light shining thru it, just below the top fork link bolt.
Plenty of photos can be found with these forks.
https://postimg.cc/JtXKX55w
Skelton owned a 1968 BMW. He never owned a Crocker before his 38-61-46 “happened”
Hazel Lilly and her son Jack moved into 6111 Gage Avenue in April 1942. Jacks draft card was updated 4 April 1942. written in pencil by the draft office. https://postimg.cc/68KnMbkY
It was required that a man inform the draft office ASAP if he changed job or address. 4 April was a Saturday.
The photo of Jacks bike was taken at 6111 Gage Avenue, 1942 https://postimg.cc/Lhrz18Nd
Jack was 24 at that time of the photo.
The address is by the front door of the house https://postimg.cc/bD51LyPt
Jacks bike was already 3 – 1/2 years old when the photo was taken. The original owner paid it off years before. There was rationing on gas and Tyres and no Crocker parts supply, which probably got the bike off the road.
Jack modified the bike some time later, still at 6111 Gage Ave. Removing the front fender, rear stand, the muffler and hand grips. https://postimg.cc/9Rycg15Y
The ‘Boozefighters’ did not exist until 1946.
6111 E Gage avenue, can be seen today, on google maps. The house hasn’t changed since 1942.
The 1936 Crocker had a right side front drum brake and the front fender had 2 braces. https://postimg.cc/F7WXrkvk
The 1937 Crocker had a left side front drum brake and a single fender brace https://postimg.cc/XGdCxRfK
Homer Wood’s bike was a 1937 model https://postimg.cc/yJ8RRzTq
Paul Bigsby rode a 1937 model in West coast Enduro, ‘Motorcyclist’ magazine June 1937, #477 https://postimg.cc/WqRdZznP
Homer Wood did not own a 1936 Crocker
Homer Wood did not own 36-61-4
Homer Wood was not the first customer
36-61-4 was not the first bike sold to the public
Murray Looper sold 36-61-4 in 1980 with a signed receipt. His wife was present at every sale of all the Looper bikes, including the lot sold in 1970 to Chuck Vernon.
The ‘Motorcyclist’ intro of the 1936 Crocker, has wheelbase at 58-1/2 inches, 475Lbs, 50hp for the twelve bikes built.
https://postimg.cc/QBB6pwS1
Supposedly this is a “genuine” item. Released September 1937. The problem is the wheelbase has jumped to 59-1/2 inches, weight climbed to 525Lbs and transmission “constant mesh gears are 50% oversize. “Kaloy” steel brake drums are used. Difference from previous model is the Parallel Valve heads and dual spring forks, at 50Lbs. Both small tank models.
https://postimg.cc/8FkbdvYS
‘The Antique Motorcycle’ magazine Winter 1975 has what is supposedly a “Genuine” spec sheet of Crocker with “transmission fully 100% oversize for strength”, “Kaloy” drums,
https://postimg.cc/RqPHBhvC
And then along comes the 1941 spec sheet. “The gears are 100% oversize”
https://postimg.cc/r0VD6Xbt
This suggests that Clymer was the dealer for Crocker V-twin. https://postimg.cc/PLkL48Qy
Problem = Clymer lost Indian franchise, 434 W Pico, at the end of 1939 and Bill Johnson got an Indian dealership in 1940, 1240 W Pico.
Clymer was a Scooter dealer in 1940 and so was Al Crocker. 1346 Venice was converted to Scooter production and the ‘Scootabout’ was sold at Clymers shop 222 West Pico and the Crocker ‘Scootabout’ shop, down the road from Al Crockers house.
West Main, Alhambra = https://postimg.cc/144zDHZP < 1940 Yellow pages, available to anyone online.
so, who printed the fake advert/spec sheets? 1941= Obviously Bogus, 1939 = possibly Bogus, 1938 = looks Bogus
The gears supposedly grew by 50% and 100%, no mention of what the?
and then there was a Deluxe model?
.
available online = 1947 Autolite parts catalog https://postimg.cc/RWFwRMtg
page 8 Distributor parts = https://postimg.cc/z3K7bXwW
page 20 Generator parts = https://postimg.cc/gLVHfNc4
parts were listed for 1938 small tank, 1939 and 1940 big tank, Parallel Valve models.
1940 production being September 1939 to the start of 1940.
1936 and 1937 Hemi head used Edison Splitdorf magneto ignition and Autolite generators.
Available online is the Autolite parts catalog for 1938 to 1951, which also lists the same Crocker parts for 1938 to 1940. That is the last record of Crocker motorcycles.
There were no bikes built in 1941 and 1942. Production of the ‘Scootabout’ started in 1940, for sale in September.
more newspapers are starting to come online in 2025 and 2026, after 90 years.
6 June 1937, Crocker for sale https://postimg.cc/CRqktcv8
The Hemi head was about 9 months old at that time and the Parallel valve model would only have been a rumor until September 1937.
So a certain notorious auction company — notorious for its association with the notorious Ron C — (and its public shilling, albeit to shill “legally”) is feeling brave enough to offer one of Ernie’s first scam bikes on Feb 1st….?? hah. Will be interesting to see what bid it gets shilled gets to, before ‘the bid goes on’…. 🙂
Indeed, I’ll be talking about this on MotorTrend TV live during the auction, as usual.
It’s interesting, and sad: in the Brough Superior Club, replicas or part-replicas are welcome, as many chassis have gone missing over the years, and there are not enough SS100s to satisfy demand. They are recognized by the club and club members, and they have a value, generally 50% of what a real SS100 would be, which is still a LOT of money, typically $250-300k. If only Crocker rebuilders/replicators were more honest, the stink of greed and fraud would fall away, and we’d be left with some lovely bikes…
Great news, Paul.
I’m not sure if honesty is more prized in ‘Blighty than yankland, and/or standards are higher? .. or whether the punters are more clued-in there and would spot / identify the fakers more easily, thus causing a scandal of sorts. Whereas and wherefore the yank guys rolling in dough from whatever ill-gotten gains they got, don’t seem to care about getting scammed…? “Scam States” — its’ funny! 🙂
Crocker replicas use Harley-Davidson con rods, simply because no Crocker con rods exist.
example: 1941 V-twin https://postimg.cc/yDJWmTVQ
specs = 69.75 cubic inches
This capacity is only possible, using Harley .060 inch oversize pistons = bore 3-1/2 x 3-5/8 stroke,
using Harley .791 pins into Harley XA-705 and XA-706 con rods. Standard piston dia 3-5/16
Weight = 475 lbs < this is the same weight as a 1936 Crocker small tank with single spring forks. Not possible.
Michael Schacht of Crocker MC company could easily confirm that Harley rods are used.
Here is a photo of the rods inside his engine https://postimg.cc/YhWxdQq9
Knucklehead XA-705 and XA-706 rods with center-to-center length https://victorylibrary.com/tech/rod-c.htm
The only options are Harley con rods or Carrillo H beam rods.
Harley 3-5/16 or 3-7/16 flat top pistons or Knucklehead Hemi dome pistons with .791-inch pins
Indian and Crocker were the only bikes with 3-1/4 pistons and .750-inch pins.
Indian did not have any OHV dome pistons.
As for Harley valves. The Crocker was released before the Knucklehead arrived.
Knucklehead parts were not available, when Crockers were being assembled in late 1935 and early 1936.
Notorious Ron C- ?
Harley piston 3-5/16 x 3-5/8 stroke = 62.479 cubic inch
HD piston means HD .791-inch pin and HD con rod
Ah, I see Mecum has listed Skelton’s 38-61-46 with “Provenance” going back to Wednesday 1968.
So, that means Urban Hirsch has died.
The engine has 62 ci capacity, as predicted.
Crocker cylinders have been cast with compensation for Harley con rod length, so that base plate/stroker plates are not needed.
https://postimg.cc/Mf0VXq9V
This means all the Crocker cylinders are of different cylinder heights. This is not a factory option. It is up to a pattern maker, whoever that is, to make what the customer wants, which makes for an expensive, bespoke project / “restoration”.
The difference between a high compression engine and standard, is the compression height built into the piston.
Cylinder height remains standard.
There was no supply of pistons left by the 1950s. The only option was HD pistons and con rods.
Michael Schacht has a good supply of cylinders
Hollywood actor John Payne 1912-1989
https://postimg.cc/ns2cMCzf
This photo is most likely post WW2. The front fender has a 1940 Indian bumper bar which became a fad in 1940 to add to the front.
The headlight gimbal can just be seen, which makes the forks single spring, which then means 1936 or 1937.
The front brake drum is on the left fork leg which makes it a 1937 model.
John Payne was in ‘To the Shores of Tripoli’ March 1942 and then he served in the war.
https://postimg.cc/gLZWyJYJ
He returned to Hollywood in ‘The Dolly sisters’ Nov 1945
This photo is supposedly John Payne but cannot be confirmed. https://postimg.cc/JHr18mm4
The bike has Harley 45 rear fender. The front brake drum is on the left fork leg, which makes it a 1937 model. The tank decal is sloped across the tank, which makes it 1937. The hand grips are typical up to 1938 models when chrome grips were used. The car appears to be 1937 Dodge sedan.
The rear fender shows that the bike has been modified, which means it had been on the road a while before the photo was taken. There needs to be more proof of identity, but the bike is still a 1937 Hemi head.
This is the most shocking bike out there. https://postimg.cc/2qTqBH66
The frame and forks are badly done.
The oil tank is under the seat which means the gas tank is not genuine.
The primary case is pressed tin.
The rear chain is Right side, which means it is a Harley sportster transmission to HD rear sprocket and drum.
The clutch could only be Harley sportster
Left side throw out bearing and shift is sportster.
The cylinders have King Kong stroker plates for Harley rods and pistons.
The front brake is Harley sportster.
The fork spring is killing itself.
The kickstart lever is Harley on a Harley shaft with coil spring, mated to an Indian segment and a 22 tooth idler gear.
The engine number is way too high, which is why Dale Walksler got rid of it.
That engine could only be sold separate minus that junk chassis
‘Government girl’ was released November 1943. Starring Olivia DeHavilland and Sonny Tufts.
At that time John Payne was serving in WW2. He had nothing to do with Hollywood or the movie and no guarantee he was returning home.
The bike is a 1938 small tank with dual spring forks and parallel valve heads. This is not John Paynes 1937 Hemi-head.
Like many bikes, the movie bike has a marker light on the fender.
https://postimg.cc/64q168m3
https://postimg.cc/8fPyC7s3
https://postimg.cc/DJ2MDjQ1
https://postimg.cc/KKhV7vRq
This bike is a big tank and has no connection to John Payne or the movie ‘Government girl’. It has a marker light on the fender.
https://postimg.cc/R66PJWBb
The Crocker Register claims the above big tank as 1940 = 40-61-120 “May be the John Payne Crocker. Unrestored”
The speedo console on John Paynes bike is clearly the small tank version and it has a single spring fork.
The Crocker Register is unreliable and total BS!
Kick start segment and idler gear are for looks only https://postimg.cc/F7zkHXb7
Transmission is from a Harley sportster https://postimg.cc/1nKVf9YN
1960s Harley Ironhead 4 speed transmission https://postimg.cc/4m2t6x46
Frank Conley’s ‘Classic Antique Motorcycle Association’ magazine 1969 Vol 2 – No 2 https://postimg.cc/sGSrFwLc
Elmo looper had his 1936 Crocker listed https://postimg.cc/rD5KG9F5
Elmo converted the heads from Hemi to parallel valve heads. Used dual gear pumps and mounted a separate oil tank. The 1936 models had the front brake mounted on the right fork leg. Elmo used Indian barrel spring on the fork. https://postimg.cc/xNMdpTHM
Elmo Looper member list https://postimg.cc/rKCBS02K
In 1910, Al Crocker was 23 and a salesman at Thor, and then he switched to Indian https://postimg.cc/FYggcKWm
He never worked at the Indian factory, Springfield Massachusetts, and therefore had nothing to do with designing any Indian engine. The 1910 Census, City directory and phone books confirm that.
https://archive.org/details/ironredskin0000such/page/318/mode/2up?q=freed
‘Iron Redskin” page 319 “Like many another mid westerners of those days, Crocker felt the urge to move to California. In 1928, he negotiated the purchase of the Freed Cycle company of LA, which firm had briefly held the Indian distributorship of southern California since the recent death of C. Will Risdon, the pioneer LA dealer.”
Disden 1956 https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/192751406/charles-willis-risden
Freed 1936 https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/256866757/aleas-freed
In the real world, C W Risden out lived Areas Freed and the Indian Motorcycle company.
Aleas Freed was last listed in LA directory, in 1926.
Al Crocker did not buy a business from Freed.
Al Crocker did not buy a machine shop.
He moved into a Furniture store at 1346 Venice Boulevard.
Al Crocker went to LA because the 1927 45-inch Scout was selling better than the 37-inch scout. The Scout 101 was released in 1928, and LA was a larger market. Set to be a hot selling item.
How could Harry Sucher make so many mistakes in that book?
It appears that Sucher didn’t know the subject, or the book manuscript was alien to him.
Jud Carriker wrote a manuscript for an Indian MC book, that never got published.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/85329243/howard_judson-carriker
How could Sucher not mention that fact? The manuscript was started before WW2.
Carriker is listed 4 times in the index.
An issue of ‘Cycle’ magazine 1951, ‘Dealer doings’. Jud Carriker had been in business since 1910. The Indian company was still in business. https://postimg.cc/QFcHZd4R
Floyd Clymer took over ‘Cycle’ mag in August 1953.
9 January 1964, Fred Schunk died https://postimg.cc/9DcyP0WW
25 years with the Army Air corp. Begining in 1940.
1939 LA yellow pages. Fred Schunk 1362 East Slauson ave, phone KI-mbl 2870 https://postimg.cc/TLVcph88
LA business directory. Fred Schunk was an employee of Albert Henry Crocker https://postimg.cc/v4Xf0yB5
The shop at 1362 Slauson ave was operating from 1934 to 1940. Al Crocker’s employee was 6 miles away from 1346 Venice Blvd. The Crocker shop main income was from used and refurbished Harley Davidson and Indian motorcycles.
The years 1934 to 1940 line up with production of Crocker speedway bikes and Crocker V-twins.
The Schunk workshop in not listed in 1940 yellow pages, because Schunk worked for the Government and Al Crocker converted 1346 Venice into a factory for the Crocker ‘Scootabout’. The Crocker mechanics no longer worked for AL Crocker, there was no work shop left. The salesmen at 1346 Venice also left.
1935 George Beerup was at 1362 East Slauson. Same address and Phone as Fred Schunk
George Beerup and Fred Schunk, same phone number https://postimg.cc/QBn6nSLS
George Beerup Crocker shop, same phone number, different address https://postimg.cc/vchP90ND
It is possible Al Crocker had 3 shops operating at once, before Beerup went solo in 1937.
Crocker had 2 shops in Kansas City.
In 1940 Crocker had 2 shops for the Crocker ‘Scootabout’.
USA was hit by recession in 1937 and 1938, besides the great depression. Al Crockers main income was from used motorcycles. His customer base was the average guy on the street, as long as they had a job and money. Unemployment was 19 – 20%.
1937 yellow pages. George Beerup is no longer a dealer for Crocker V-twin and his phone number has changed. LA faet 9460. Which would indicate he had no connection to Al Crocker.
Fred Schunk still had the phone number Kl-mbl 2870, and he was an employee of Al Crocker.
https://postimg.cc/mh85cQgb
Floyd Clymer opened another shop at Sunset Blvd.
Any stories claiming a Crocker was bought from Beerup after 1936, is BOGUS.
1936 Crocker dealer George Beerup https://postimg.cc/vchP90ND
1937 and 1938 Crocker dealer Bill Clymer https://postimg.cc/nCTF1qnk
1938 Crocker dealer Jud Carriker and Joe Koons https://postimg.cc/LnP79pbZ
1939 Crocker dealer Tex and Art https://postimg.cc/5Ycbt3mx
1939 Crocker dealer Bill Johnson https://postimg.cc/MMyxfQs1
1940 Crocker dealer Anthony Collette and Michael Colavito https://postimg.cc/3WT0SCH5
1940 Crocker assembly started September 1939; the same time war was declared in Europe. Collette and Colavito would have already paid for the dealership before seeing the ending was near.
1941 Michael Colavito had his own shop. https://postimg.cc/zyVybxTW
If Skelton’s gets shilled to the limit on Feb 2nd by the auctioneer’s ‘droids and then gets passed on — ie “bid goes on” — that will be good. If it sells for anything above the auctioneer’s shill level that will be bad, and show that the scammers can still scam the ‘trillionaire’ mortgage punters. I suspect the auctioneer shill tops will be about $720K…?? We shall see! 🙂
I was told “Montoya” was a place name or Mexican
You know Paris, I am sure you are a cool guy and all, but what does the origin of “montoya” matter? “Mexican’ ?? STFW and so the F what! get with it, dude. ‘montoya’ was a CIA Deep State code name many years ago. Don’t like it? too bad!
I would think “Pendergrass” would be of far more concern to ‘Paris’ than “montoya”,,,,????????? and besides, “montoya” sounds so cool too…
I see “The Crazy World of the Crocker” and “Bill Jones” who?
and who or what the hell is “Pendergrass”. more deep space, anonymous
Martha’s second husband. C’mon man.
1346 Venice Boulevard was Zimmermans Furniture store https://postimg.cc/dLjpgWVk
1346 Venice is still in a semi residential/commercial zone.
There was no Foundry or Foundry workers.
There was no Machine shop.
There was no contract to supply Indian parts to Springfield or E Paul DuPont.
Al Crocker was not friends with George Hendee or Oscar Hedstrom.
Al Crocker did not buy a dealership from Aleas Freed.
Al Crocker did not make the Crocker V-twin at 1346 Venice.
Al Crocker did not sell the company to https://www.borgwarner.com/home
Harry Sucher and Chuck Vernon lied about everything, for years
‘The Antique Motorcycle’ Sept/Oct 2022, vol 61- No5, was the latest issue with the usual BS narrative, based on Harry Sucher and Chuck Vernon’s tall tale.
That shows no historical research has been done, which does nothing for the feature bike 36-61-9.
The survival rate for 1936 Crocker models is absolutely INCREDIBLE!!
https://postimg.cc/Jty1gkXb
“A foremost authority on the restoration of Crockers was Ernest Skelton. He owned several machines, restored various models owned by others, and was in possession of MOST of the original shop blueprints drawn by Paul Bigsby. Primarily Ernie, along with Jim Gallagher worked to “restore” this 1937 Crocker, and the restoration continues to this day with Jim’s son Mark”
The bike was 37-61-19, supposedly Steve McQueen’s. But no, it’s a Bogus story
The only way Ernie Skelton could have “most” of the drawings was if they were drawn and signed by a “p a bigsby” impersonator, with bogus dates.
The need for a full set of drawings is for full reproduction of all the parts required.
Elmo Looper was given a small number of drawings. Al Crocker would NOT hand over a full set of drawings to anyone.
That would be gifting the entire motorcycle away for free. AL Crocker did NOT do that.
Michael Schacht has a complete set of drawings for reproduction.
Chilli has a full set of drawings or programs for reproduction.
That means Ernie Skelton had a full set of drawings to go forth and produce.
Where did Ernie get “several machines”? Crockers are supposed to be rare.
I don’t know how many times I have uploaded draft cards.
Bob Mcleod https://postimg.cc/5YN8HxC1
born 24 October 1921
1936 Crockers were on order and pre-sold September 1935.
John Robert Mcleod was 13 years old and a school kid at that time.
He was 14 when ‘Motorcyclist’ magazine debuted the new 1936 Crocker V-twin.
1940 census https://postimg.cc/R3qMqyZy
Bob Mcleod was 18, unemployed and at school. The last Crocker was already sold by the time of the census collection.
Bob Mcleod bought a used Crocker after WW2. The Mcleod family have confirmed, circa 1949.
He was an adult by that time.
1974 AMCA mag, Chuck Vernon’s unfinished 1938 thing https://postimg.cc/XrXkpWWy
1977 Choppers mag April, Chuck’s 1939 thing https://postimg.cc/Vd0QWs6j
1977 Iron Redskin June, Chuck’s 1936 thing https://postimg.cc/sM8q2Kks
1979 Motorcycle News, Nov, Chuck’s 1939 thing https://postimg.cc/dZBjTtDG
1983 The Classic motorcycle, July, Chuck’s 1939 thing https://postimg.cc/LJvTqLpv
1995 Early-Riders magazine #2, the bike was assembled as a Hemi head 36-61-1X
Pics available on the www of it evolving thru the years into 36-61-1X and sold for a packet.
No matter what year Chuck placed on his bike, it is still a small tank with a 1939 polished tank panel, with no ‘Crocker’ decal.
Homer Wood had the same paint option from 1939, which gives clue’s to history of the bike.
https://postimg.cc/MvF8nNz0
1993 Cycle World, Chucks 1936 thing https://postimg.cc/cvwBj6zB
The 1938. 1939, 1936 reproduction motorcycle, stamped 36-61-1X
‘Milwaukee Marvel’ August 1981, Harry Sucher https://postimg.cc/PPYLn7W1
“By the spring of 1938, Crocker’s miniscule production totaled but 36 units, and this in its second season of manufacture”
That is production from September 1935 to September 1936, to September 1937 (the Parallel valve model).
That is twelve units each model year. That gives engine numbering as #1 to #12, #13 to #24, #25 to #36.
Which would then lead to the big tank model in September 1938, numbered as #37 to #48.
The last batch produced in September 1939, stamped #49 to #54, IF a half dozen were assembled.
War was declared against Germany in September 1939, which changed everything.
Jim Lattin certainly knew how to throw a spanner in the works. He could afford to.
The Crocker register lists 1939 “small tank” models and then along comes Jim Lattin and drops a big tank, with engine number #54, right in the middle of it. https://www.mecum.com/lots/435702/1939-crocker-twin-bob-ross/
It’s the 1939 small tanks that don’t belong.
1938 the small tank got dual spring fork, speed grips, parallel valve heads and coil ignition.
There was no upgrade that could be added to the small tank.
1939 model = new frame, new tanks, new badges = Big tank model.
Thanks to Harry Sucher and Jim Lattin.
‘There is a crack in everything. That’s how the light gets in.’ – Leonard Cohen
Al Crocker was married 1913, that was the only way he was leaving town with Mr Hasha’s daughter https://postimg.cc/2qqy2RPv
Al Crocker took over Kansas City, 1 January 1914 https://postimg.cc/ZBQ0fBCJ
^^^ Mr Jefferds daughter / Eddie Hasha’s widow
https://postimg.cc/0MGLRn3n
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/188566166/gertrude_alice_crocker
I mean Strickland has all the facts. Strickland must know about martha and Dog poo over the fence… Fresno…??
Now. What will Ron Christenson shill Ernie’s piece of crap up to? Thoughts?
Anyone?
Anyone here into the Beverly Hillbillies? “Granny” was me fave character.
Just saying.
^^ Any chance you have been ripped off on one of these “Crocker”?
seems there is personal stuff surrounding these bikes.
Cycle World 2010 https://magazine.cycleworld.com/article/2010/6/1/building-the-perfect-crocker
“In 1965, Vernon bought #39 for $365” engine number 38-61-39. https://postimg.cc/D8VtzNwQ
In AMCA ‘The Antique Motorcycle’ 1974, 38-61-39 https://postimg.cc/XrXkpWWy
And in 1977, this is the same bike but reborn 1936 https://postimg.cc/sM8q2Kks
Al Crocker did not design Thor engines with Bill Ottaway at Aurora Automatic.
1907, Al Crocker was a Freshman at Armour Institute of Technology, Chicago.
1908, Sophomore
1909, Junior
1910, Senior
1910 Census record shows he was a 22 yr old student https://postimg.cc/8sLzTc8t
https://postimg.cc/v4KsrwF4
Al Crocker was a salesman at the Thor dealership until 1910. (George Sherman jumped ship in 1910)
Al Crocker was a privateer racer but also a team rider in endurance races.
1910 Al Crocker became a salesman for Hendee Chicago. He did not go to Springfield to design OHV or OHC engines.
especially OHC.*
https://postimg.cc/D8VtzNwQ
The name of the “Guy” is and was Murray Looper.
Chuck Vernon and everyone else have conveniently forgotten Murray’s name.
Murray’s son still remembers the deal 55 years ago. This took place only 2 months after Elmo Loopers funeral* 5 November 1969.
The deal was between Murray and Ernie Skelton.
Chuck Vernon drove to Nevada to pick up the goods/survivors. Most likely in Skelton’s Chev Pick up.
The deal was 55 years ago, approx. to the day.
The 2010 Crocker Register, list for 1936:
36-61-1X, 36-61-3. 36-61-4, 36-61-5, 36-61-6, 36-61-7, 36-61-8, 36-61-9, 36-61-10, 36-61-11
36-61-12, 36-61-13, 36-61-14, 36-61-25, 36-61-A
‘Motorcyclist’ magazine 1936. The debut of the Crocker V-twin https://postimg.cc/H80tfNBD
The last sentence states “At present only twelve motors are going through the line of production” A H Crocker.
That means, out of the twelve bikes produced, only fifteen have survived.
That is a survival rate of 125%, but that doesn’t include 36-61-1 and 36-61-2, which have yet to be found.
Two more bikes will make it 141% survival rate https://www.calculator.net/percent-calculator.html
(17 is what % of 12)
According to a dating expert all alloy metals produced before 1945 — called “low background steel” — have a different nuclear signature than alloys produced after 1945. Differences exist in non-ferrous alloys cast before then too, as we’ve already discussed. Assuming these crazy prices go crazy higher I’d imagine such techniques will be used to determine authenticity of crankcases and frames. I believe one insurance company is already doing that which interestingly did not “present” yesterday’s (Feb 1st) nonsense. Could not ID who bought the crock #46. But he looked too clean and too normal to be a yankee. Also funny when the talking head said to Paul D “only two hundred were produced” and Paul D said the jury is still out on that. 🙂
Yeah, working on that indeed. I have all the Crocker registers/lists from 1970 onwards, and the quotes from Al Crocker himself saying he was only building 12 bikes in 1936. Well, how many ‘1936’ Crockers are there now…it’s a problem. I have NO issue with replacement parts or even replica bikes, as long as they are labelled as such. There’s a place for them at the table. The market knows. I don’t know the gent who bought #46, but he’s an American, and a fairly new, low-key collector.
Yes I believe the last iteration of the registry was dated 2010? I have the Bob Stark copy. It will be interesting to see if a ‘new’ version of the registry ever appears. But the legal implication of laundering these bikes via a new registry could be a serious liability, especially for the (attorney) son of the guy who was responsible for its 2010 production. Not alleging anything improper by him. Just seems like a pickle these guys are in overall, with regard to provenance. My hunch is that only those numbers associated with Ernie Skelton’s load from Murray will retain some value. But who knows? Anyway, really appreciated your commentary at the show!
Good luck to whoever bought Skeltons motorcycle.
Skelton died 1995. The 1996 Crocker register was fresh after he died. Chuck’s Version number 1.
Note that 37-61-22 was just an engine 30 years ago. Today it is at ‘Wheels Through Time’
Skeltons bike 40 years ago, with big tank paint option and badges https://postimg.cc/vcMnQhZZ
Knee contact can’t wear off brass badges or paint.
1988, Skelton got upset when Popular Mechanics claimed Harley Davidson origins. https://postimg.cc/HVs0gmzL
It has already been printed in AMCA mag, 1971, that he used Harley pistons, rods and crank. Crocker parts were nonexistent, as stated by Harry Sucher. There was no other option, so Popular Mechanics was not too far off.
1971 AMCA mag and CAMA mag had articles about Harry Sucher’s bike 38-61-31. Skelton was commissioned to “restore” the bike, but for some reason, Skeltons bike was completed first and on the road. Sucher’s bike was supposedly used for patterns. The bike was supposedly bought ‘sight unseen’ from Chicago. In 1981, Sucher claimed he bought the bike from R.J Hickethier (1905-1975) ‘Milwaukee Marvel’. Russell John Hickethier never lived to read ‘Milwaukee Marvel’, and he never lived in Chicago either. He was not available for comment.
Jim Gallagher, of Illinois, happened to have 38-61-30 and 38-61-50, supposedly the first and last bikes produced in 1938. God knows what the odds are for a person to secure those engine numbers. Al Crocker did not hire more mechanics during 1938. It would be unlikely to push production higher than 1937 production. 1936 production has already been recorded at twelve units. I have not seen a magazine with Skelton’s bike 38-61-46, as a feature bike, with any details. For some reason #46 didn’t make it into the AMCA mag. It was completed before Sucher’s and everyone supposedly rode Skelton’s demonstrator model. “Skelton was also a helluva salesman, Vernon recalls” 2010
Thor team https://postimg.cc/MMWybHYy
Thor team https://postimg.cc/jnDnZ7nJ
1910 Al Crocker switches to Indian sales https://postimg.cc/Z0nNT1sK
1910, American Society of Mechanical Engineers https://postimg.cc/kB23jHF4
AH Crocker was living at 650 Barry Ave, his parents’ house. His older brother George Hoyte Crocker was also living at home.
Who’s the guy with Sam Parriott?
Gene Alexander Rhyne = http://hof.motorcyclemuseum.org/halloffame/detail.aspx?RacerID=258#:~:text=Gene%20Rhyne%20was%20a%20multi-time%20National%20Hillcimb%20Champion%2C,late%201920s%20and%20continued%20well%20into%20the%201950s.
1910 Crocker was a salesman for Aurora but late in the year he switched to Hendee https://postimg.cc/Z0NXLxKt
He had nothing to do with Hendee engine design. He did not work with Hedstrom and had nothing to do with OHC design. He was a salesman. That’s where the money was, as taught by George W Sherman.
Crocker was a member of the North shore MC club, until he left for San Francisco, 1911 https://postimg.cc/zV162HVL
How many Crocker V-twins did Gene Rhyne (1907-1987) assemble? NONE *
He was in the speedway game in the mid to late 1930s. Quick search online = https://postimg.cc/68JSGHSP
(Thats just one example).
He was mechanic for Crocky Rawding. ‘Boonton Weekly Bulletin’ 1 July 1938.
https://postimg.cc/zbBP14by
https://postimg.cc/MXnr32J4
No connection to Crocker Motorcycles 1346 Venice Boulevard, LA. Rhyne had nothing to do with Crocker speedway bikes either. He raced JAPs. He could only be involved with 1970s replicas.
Al Crocker hired him in 1940, when the ‘Scootabout’ was built
Most books or mags refer to Gene Rhyne as a source of info, claiming bikes were made in batches of 25. Which was physically impossible. 25 units per year = 175 units, if sticking to the story of 1942 production.
In 1936, AL Crocker said 12 bikes were going into production, which is the physical limit of the mechanics.
36-61-25 by Skelton and Len E Mathews is life imitating art. That also puts a spotlight on 38-61-50 and 39-61-100
L E Mathews also had the Don Johns “Cyclone”. AMCA mag winter 1974. The bike he claimed he owned for over 50 years. He was 64 at that time, which makes him 14 yr old or less. Great tale
The same mag, Bob L Lyons claimed he was hired to assemble Cyclones. Problem is, he was born 1901, which would make him almost 15 years old, in 1916. Bob paid to have his supposed race bike, converted to a leaf spring road-bike. He claimed it was the only Cyclone road-bike in existence, which means there were none!
How many Cyclones today?
https://www.legacy.com/us/obituaries/lake-county-news-sun/name/james-gallagher-obituary?id=22687225
According to the obituary, Jim Gallagher had only one Crocker basket case.
The Crocker register has his name next to 4 bikes, which is a 400% increase. Chances are there were more than that.
36-61-14, supposedly the last bike built in 1936
37-61-22, Skeltons bike
38-61-30, supposedly the first bike built in 1938
38-61-50, supposedly the last bike built in 1938
The probability of consecutive numbers or finding the first and last engine numbers of any year, would be like Lotto numbers and there’s only 40 of those.
Gene Rhyne’s claim of bikes built in batches of 25, is bogus, which doesn’t do much for 38-61-50 and #14 is a stretch.
1910, Al Crocker, Armour institute of technology. https://postimg.cc/kRgx3x8r
Richard Teller Crane https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_T._Crane
‘Motorcyclist’ magazine, June 1937. Index reads “Bigsby wins the west coast Endurance” page 8.
https://postimg.cc/PvjKjz80
https://postimg.cc/WqRdZznP
Paul Bigsby on a 1937 Crocker. The front brake drum is on the left fork leg, and it has gear pumps, making it one of the last bikes built. Production beginning in September 1936.
Ernie Magri had a 1937 model with left side brake drum and plunger oil pump.
Homer Wood had a 1937 model with left side brake drum and plunger oil pump.
1936 models had the front brake on the right fork leg like an Indian
Someone on Youtube was offended that I wrote “Crocker replicas use HD con rods, 3-5/16″ pistons, .791″ pins and sometimes stroker plates. Con rod length gives the game away and there is not enough Crocker rods to go around. Production was from 1936 to 1940, Paul Bigsby said there were 64 built yet his quote has been ignored. 1936 Al Crocker said there was 12 built, also ignored. Chuck Vernon died 2015 and no one is left to uphold the BS story, eventually the truth catches up”
@TAS13-j5s = “Chuck is a Crocker legend, and was the nicest guy you would ever meet. You are lucky you are just ignorantly bloviating on YouTube. If you called ANYTHING about Chuck “BS” in front of me, Mike Madden or Steve Huntzinger you would be on the ground bleeding before you could blink. History lesson over.”
Chuck Vernon simply wrote BS! “LEGEND”
Online records of Draft records, birth, death, marriage, census, business directories, newspapers, speedway programs, phone books, yellow pages, ‘Bicycling World & Motorcycle review’, ‘Motorcycle Illustrated’, ‘Motorcyclist’ cannot be suppressed.
Any bikes that have 3-1/4″ bores are repop with no engine wear. Any bikes with Harley 3-5/16 or 3-7/16 pistons are Skelton repops. Starting with Skelton’s #46 and his first customer Harry Sucher #31, both bikes 68 cui. AMCA mag and CAMA mag.
What size piston? Stroke 3-5/8″ http://nightrider.com/biketech/calc_displacement.htm
No company made 3-1/4″ Hemi dome pistons. Hemi heads were boat anchors after 1937.
Elmo Looper had the only solution. He converted 3 Crocker engines. No one else did, they scrapped them.
No Crocker con-rods exist because most Crocker V-twins went to scrap when there were no spare parts supply.
What about clutch plates? The fiber plates have 16 tangs according to Michael Schacht’s clutch basket.
They better be HD 16 tang plates, if not, then that is another reason Crockers went to scrap as soon as the clutch died. And what about the steel plates? no spares
The YT comment sounds like a threat of violence – perhaps even a death threat? I’d report the post to the authorities and perhaps hire a detective to investigate and have law enforcement involved. Some of these Crocker people are a nasty nasty bunch, and some are actual killers. Contact me for details. Take care.
Forgot to mention… check out the recent article (October, 2024) in American Rider entitled, “Steve Huntzinger: Craftsman of the Classics” by Rafferty. What I find really interesting is that his involvement in reproducing Crocker replicas is not mentioned, and there is almost nothing on that subject online…? Reason I bring that up and what reminded me, is based on the post above about these guys threatening violence on a member here.
Another major culprit in the replicas was one Chuck Vogel. Vogel had sand casting molds made for a number of Crocker replica parts — including cylinders and cylinder heads. Those sand casting molds were sold on ebay to buyers in Canada and Aus some years ago. And it was precisely ten years ago – 2015 – when Richard Morris announced his operation to produce replica rolling frames and even complete replica motorcycles, bypassing the Schacht effort to do the same. .
What does “Bloviating” mean? Use example?? Sincere question. Anyone wanna buy some crockers?
Bloviation is a style of empty, pompous, political speech that originated in Ohio and was most notably used by Warren G. Harding in his successful 1920 US presidential campaign. He subsequently described it as “the art of speaking for as long as the occasion warrants, and saying nothing”